Go to youtube and watch ascension presents with father mike. look for the video about Saints. Perhaps others can explain better than I can but I will try. First of all the Saints are alive in Christ. They are not dead. When you ask someone close to you to pray for you is that wrong? Of course not! Father Mike could explain it better than I could. Go to youtube and find him.
Depends on which Old Testament canon you accept, Catholic or Protestant. Remember the Protestant Reformers removed five books and parts of others from the long-accepted Catholic Old Testament canon, precisely because those books and passages supported such Catholic things as Purgatory and praying for the dead and praying to the saints, the saints praying for the living, and the attributing of miracles to the intercession of the saints.
Concerning praying to the saints, in the Catholic Old Testament the angels and the spirits and souls of the just are prayerfully addressed in the Song of the Three Young Men in Daniel:
Even in the Protestant Old Testament, the angels in heaven are prayerfully addressed by the Psalmist:
Concerning praying to the saints, in the Catholic Old Testament the angels and the spirits and souls of the just are prayerfully addressed in the Song of the Three Young Men in Daniel:
Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:58 NABRE)
Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:86 NABRE)Long-dead Solomon is prayerfully addressed in Sirach 47:14-20 NABRE; long-assumed-into-heaven Elijah in Sirach 48:4-11 NABRE.
Even in the Protestant Old Testament, the angels in heaven are prayerfully addressed by the Psalmist:
Bless the Lord, all you his angels, mighty in strength, acting at his behest, obedient to his command. (Psalm 103:20)
Praise him, all you his angels; give praise, all you his hosts. (Psalm 148:2)And, didn’t Jesus liken the saints in heaven to angels? See Luke 20:34-36. And, didn’t the author of Hebrews closely associate the saints in heaven with the angels? See Hebrews 12:22-23.
I agree with this. Also, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man ‘asks’ or ‘prays to’ Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers. How much more OT than Abraham himself?
Thanks very much all.
From reading your responses im going to say:
That the situation now is different than before the ressurection. No normal protestant Christian would argue against this.
To me its related to the ‘communion of saints’ portion of the creed. Clearly this wasnt possible before the resurection.
The individuals Elijah, Moses etc were really an exception rather than the rule in those times and most people were in Sheol.
I have argued with him before that Luther had no authority to remove those books from the bible and did so because they were inconvenient for him. He agreed, but said he thought the remaining 66 books contained more than enough to be saved and I agreed with this.
But it means they miss out on the richness if our faith and that is why I converted. I needed the extra help and still still do.
Thanks again
Gareth
From reading your responses im going to say:
That the situation now is different than before the ressurection. No normal protestant Christian would argue against this.
To me its related to the ‘communion of saints’ portion of the creed. Clearly this wasnt possible before the resurection.
The individuals Elijah, Moses etc were really an exception rather than the rule in those times and most people were in Sheol.
I have argued with him before that Luther had no authority to remove those books from the bible and did so because they were inconvenient for him. He agreed, but said he thought the remaining 66 books contained more than enough to be saved and I agreed with this.
But it means they miss out on the richness if our faith and that is why I converted. I needed the extra help and still still do.
Thanks again
Gareth
Thank God, this is true.
I don’t think you need to say anything negative about his church in order to tell him what is positive about your church. Tell him everything you want to say about praying to saints and the authority of the Catholic church, but IMO, keep Luther out of it. The conversation can just turn into a battle of who’s right, who’s wrong battle without anyone learning anything, and I don’t think that’s what you want to happen, you want your friend to really listen to you… right?
I don’t think you need to say anything negative about his church in order to tell him what is positive about your church. Tell him everything you want to say about praying to saints and the authority of the Catholic church, but IMO, keep Luther out of it. The conversation can just turn into a battle of who’s right, who’s wrong battle without anyone learning anything, and I don’t think that’s what you want to happen, you want your friend to really listen to you… right?
I agree Annad thank you.
It’s more like asking the saints to pray to God on your behalf, while at the same time praying to God yourself. You could point out that Protestants tend to have prayer groups and prayer circles, in which the same logic is applied.
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